RAY
SUAREZ: This year, the Templeton Prize, given for research or discoveries about
spiritual realities, went to Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor. The prize is
worth more than $1.5 million, making it the largest annual monetary award given
to an individual.
Welcome,
Professor. And congratulations.
CHARLES
TAYLOR, Winner, Templeton Prize: Thank you. Thank you
very much.
RAY
SUAREZ: Well, you've been critical of the way things have been going, certainly
in the West. And one thing you wrote kind of popped out at me: "The
culture of the humanities and the social sciences has often been surprisingly
blind and deaf to the spiritual." How?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Well, because they try to explain everything human beings do by talking
about economic factors, political factors, drive for power, all of which are
important, but they leave out what I call the spiritual dimension.
I mean,
that means the answers people give to certain very deep questions, like the
meaning of life, or what is really good in human life, or how can I make my
life better or more pure, and that sort of thing, which actually also motivates
people. And that's why you never can really understand what's going on if you
just set them aside.
RAY
SUAREZ: Motivate people, yes, but can we see as easily, as we do maybe in the
drive for wealth and power, how the spiritual affects the way we live day to
day?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Well, sometimes it gets terribly, terribly evident. I mean, some terrible phenomena that worry us very much, like
this kind of extreme violence that we see in parts of the world, young people
hanging around, they don't know really what their life adds up to, they have no
dignity.
And
somebody comes along and gives them a tremendous sense of meaning and dignity
and power if they join this movement and even sometimes do some terrible
things. Now, that is power of those questions in human life, which is very
clearly operative.
RAY
SUAREZ: So I guess that leads to what you've also said to several people: We
don't understand what's going on unless we understand that, as human beings, we
are spiritual beings. So what should we be doing?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: That's what I mean.
Using spirituality in politics
RAY SUAREZ: What should we be doing to answer people's what you call spiritual
hungers that we're not doing right now?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Well, you know, there's only one way to answer
a bad form of spirituality; it's a better one.
But I
think that -- I'm speaking for people who are trying to make decisions in
politics and so on, they have to understand the people they're dealing with. So
they have to have a sense of what is moving them on that level, in other words,
not just see what economic needs they have, what political power loss they've
experienced and so on, but see what's actually driving them on that level.
And I
think that's terribly true when we get to the what we call terrorism in the
world today, which is largely driven -- the people actually doing it, you know,
are not in there for more money. They're in there for some kind of sense of
fulfillment.
And
unless we understand that, unless we begin to understand what could maybe take
the place of that very destructive form, and we encourage those other forms,
we're never going to be able to deal with it intelligently and effectively.
RAY
SUAREZ: So if you were advising foreign ministers, diplomats who are heading to
another part of the world, they shouldn't just know what the gross domestic
product is or the life expectancy. They should know what else?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Well, they should know what kind of spiritual answers people find
powerful in that society, you see. Because when you see that, you can see
what's moving them. You know how to talk to them on all levels, not just on the
level of economics and politics, and you can see how to deal effectively with
them.
I mean,
just take an example. When we had -- after 9/11, we defined it or many people
defined it as a war on terror. I think the mistake, a
big mistake was made there, because if you define it just as a war, you're
going to lose it.
If you
see that the only way effectively of dealing with this is that somehow those
young kids get something else in their lives that can really move them in the
same way, then you're beginning to see that it's hearts and minds that matter,
much more than actually military force.
I'm not
saying there isn't a military role, but there's more than that. And it's
typical of our, you know, tunnel vision in the West that we follow this right
away in military terms and right away in terms of war-making, and not in terms
of what could change the hearts and minds in those societies.
Templeton Prize effect
RAY SUAREZ: If you look at the list of previous Templeton Prize winners, in
recent years there have been an awful lot of scientists. If you look at the
list overall, there have been also a lot of religious leaders.
You're
a philosopher. How does that fit into the broad sweep of who has won this award
in the past?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Well, I don't know if there is a broad sweep. I think there's been a lot of changes going on. There is a single
thread, perhaps, but I think when they move to begin giving them to scientists,
they were thinking of how to bring together science and religion.
And
then I think they had another thought, which was very good for me, how to bring
together, if you'd like, social science and spirituality, how to see if there
isn't a spiritual dimension that could transform the way we understand other
people in social science and in history. And I think that's maybe why, because
of that turning, that they gave me the prize.
RAY
SUAREZ: So does something like this, perhaps, have the effect of bringing more
attention to your work? Are you seeing that already?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Yes, and it's not just my work. You know, this complaint I've been
making about social science being too narrow, it's already changing. And there
are lots of networks of people and groups and younger scholars who are
beginning to look more seriously and trying to understand what the religious
movements in the world are doing, and how they're changing, and how they're
morphing. And so I think that whole movement is going to be
given a lift, and I'm really, really happy about that.
'Human life is multi-causal'
RAY SUAREZ: Well, you've been critical of the way people try to use the
mechanics of modern life without spirituality to take a look at society's
problems. Conversely, do you make a mistake if you look for a spiritual answer
only, without looking at those other sort of nutsy-boltsy
things that make up our daily life?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the thing
about human life is it's tremendously multi-causal. There's
all these things working all the time. You can't afford to leave anything out,
and you have to know how they all intersect in a given society.
I mean,
there's another way I think in which we've been dumbed
down very much. And there's a tremendous moralization that very often goes on
when we look at politics. You have on one side people who think purely in terms
of power and realism; on the other side, people who think purely in terms of,
you know, these are bad people, like we say, they hate freedom.
And you
just never give yourself the chance really to understand what motivated those
people and, therefore, to understand how maybe you could change what they're
doing. So I think, in these two ways -- I mean, by heavy moralization on one
hand and very reductive explanations of human life on the other, we're just
missing so much of what's actually the moving parts of the world in which we
live.
RAY
SUAREZ: Do you have any plans for the money?
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Well, I want to carry on the kind of work that I've been doing. And,
you know, I do it mainly in networks, because this kind of thing, you can't be
just in one little discipline and work it all out. So I really want to help
whole networks in which I'm already engaged to, you know, meet more and be able
to be more active and to push ahead some of this research.
RAY
SUAREZ: Professor Charles Taylor, thanks for being with
us.
CHARLES
TAYLOR: Thank you very much.